I've lost something...!

[Mark Yong]

A topic that never fails to fascinate me: Saying "I have lost <something>" in Hokkien. I normally end up using "phāng khi". I never found out what the Hanzi for it is, but a friend told me that it is the fusion of three words "păng bó khi" 放無去, which I am not convinced about. Hong - can you please help?

Whenever I hear the term 不見 used in Penang Hokkien, it is always pronounced in Mandarin "bu1jian4", e.g. "wâ ě mi-kia bu1jian4 hi liau" 我之物件不見去了("I have lost my things"). Is it because 不見 was a term developed very late in Chinese language history, being originated from Mandarin? If so, what was the old (wenyan) term for "lost something"? Is it just 失?

Many Penangites from non-Chinese educated background (I am referring mainly to the mid-70's kids and later - Sim, you are spared! ) use "phāng khi" for someone losing his way. I often hear phrases like "i tua sŭa-pā phāng khi liau" ("he is lost in the jungle"). There is, of course, a proper term for it - sit cōng 失蹤. Anyway, I believe even with the substitution, the afore-mentioned sentence is still grammatically incorrect.

[hong]

山芭 is not minnan but it was people in south east asia who invented it.拍不見phah m kinn=phang kinn.It is not for human.
missing in jungle is 失路sit-lo,kiann-bo-lo,tong-bo-lo.
失 in 楚辭is 找不到。

[Mark Yong]

Thanks, Hong. So, if I understand correctly, what we often hear as "phang khi" is actually the fusion of the three words phah + m + kinn 拍不見 - and the final -nn in kinn disappearing in speech. That probably explains why I sometimes hear it is "pham ki" - the "pha" 拍 and "m" 不 fusing.

I suppose that answers my question about whether 不見 was a later Mandarin-developed term.

Regarding 山芭, I have often wondered if the terms "su/ch'iu lim" 樹林 and "sim lim" 森林 for "jungle/forest" are in common use (whether in colloquial speech, or in official stuff e.g. news-reading). But since you mentioned that 山芭 is a South-East Asian invention, I suppose the above two terms are used on the mainland and in Taiwan. Even the local Cantonese speakers have adopted the term 山芭 - often referring to it as "pun san pa" 半山芭.

[hong]

no,minnan forest is 樹林 chiu7na5 (baidu)。If we want a mandarin wendu it will be in 3 sounds for that 森=xia-sim1,chiang-sOm,chuan-serm.

[Guest]

Hong wrote:

no,minnan forest is ? ?? chiu7na5 (baidu)??If we want a mandarin wendu it will be in 3 sounds for that 妫?xia-sim1,chiang-sOm,chuan-serm.

I am not too sure that 妫 is sOm1 in Ciangciu accent and serm1 in Cuanciu accent, I think they are still sim1, same as in Xiamen accent.
The sim1, sOm1, serm1 interchange is applicable to another sim1 ?? as in ginseng 浜 ?? .

[hong]

No,I just follow china's book but not any taiwanese book.Above chiangchiu and chuanchiu vowel may be lost for some young people but certainly not old people.

[Sim]

...Many Penangites from non-Chinese educated background (I am referring mainly to the mid-70's kids and later - Sim, you are spared! ) use "phang khi" for someone losing his way. I often hear phrases like "i tua sua-pa phang khi liau" ("he is lost in the jungle"). ...

Hi Mark and Hong,

Two responses, first about "forest" and then about "lost", with an afterthought about "fall".

"Forest"
--------
This topic was touched on in the past (buried in the "Happy Chinese New Year" topic). Three quotes are relevant: my original posting, Hong's response, and Niuc's comment on both. (My tone-number is wrong in the original posting, it should, of course, be "sua*7-pa1", not "sua*3-pa1".

Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:38 pm
...BTW, does anyone know what the character for "huan" as in "huan-cio" (chillie) is?

I presume it's the word which means "native", "indigenous".

The word I used as a child for "Malay" was "huan-a" (which I suppose means "native-diminutive" = "native person", and for "Red Indian" / "Native American" was "sua*-pa huan" (mountain-forest?-native).

I think the former is quite innocent, and not meant to be derogatory, the latter might certainly be interpreted as such.

While I'm asking, I'd also like to know the characters for "sua*3-pa1" (mountain-forest?). This was the word I used to mean "jungle". I believe "pa1" is also used in "rubber estate", 'chiu3-leng3-pa1'. I asked a Taiwanese speaker once, but he didn't recognize this word "sua*3-pa1" at all. ...

Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:19 am
...huan-chio is 番椒.The word start with huan is not popular in china anymore according to Prof.Lim.
suannpa 山芭is not a putonghua or taiwan guoyu but just a malaya /singapore invented word.see this article.芭 means banana or a herb.
www.huayuqiao.org/articles/wanghuidi/wang03.htm
you should use chhiu-na for minnan 树林 . both are baidu. ...

Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:36 pm
...We also usually say 'pa1' for forest, 樹林 'chiu7-na5' is more "formal". I am quite surprised not able to found the word in Douglas'. It sounds so Hokkien to me and I don't know any other languages in SE Asia using 'pa' for forest. There are a lot of places in Riau (Sumatra) called '... pa1' ( ... forest) in Hokkien such as 'tua7-pa1' (big forest), 'si3-kak4-pa1' (four corners / rectangular forest), 'chau3-ta1-pa1' (scorched forest). Interestingly, 'pa1' also - may be just homophones - means "town" in my hometown Bagansiapiapi. We have 'pa1 lia4' (downtown), 'ting2 pa1' (upper town or upper forest? i.e. the southern part), 'e7-pa1' (lower town/forest ? i.e. the northern part), also 'pa1-au7' (rear part of town/forest ? i.e. the eastern part). Western part is called 海口 'hai2-khau2' (literally: mouth of sea) i.e. seaside/seaport. May be it was a forest therefore its part were named like that. I am not sure what's the character for 'pa1' & 'lia4', also what 'lia4' means here. But for us, 'pa1-lia4' more or less means "downtown". ...

"Lost"
------

Thanks Hong for this very useful information on the original form of "phang1-ki*3". It matches the way I pronounce it very well (I say it with no aspiration and with nasalization: "ki*3", rather than with Mark's form: "khi").

Mark, I'm amused at what you say about 1970's Penang kids using this for people getting lost. For me, it is only (like Hong points out) used for a human who loses something. i.e. the thing which is lost has to be an object, lost *by* a human, not the human himself/herself. For example: "gua1 phang1-ki*3 gua1 e ciu1-pio1" (I lost my watch), or "gua1 e ciu1-pio1 phang1-ki*3 liau2" (my watch is lost).

I didn't know any other phrase or word for getting lost in the jungle. If I had to say this in Hokkien, I would say "cue3-bo7-lO7" (find no road).

The precise meaning of "cue3-bo7-lO7" is still slightly different from being lost, as far as I can see, but it's my closest approximation. It works for the city, but whether one could actually use it for the jungle is disputable. [On the other hand, the "lO7" in the jungle could be just the little tracks through the jungle...]

BTW, this reminds me of the expression "bo7-lO3-iong3" ("totally useless", or "rather useless"). I suppose "bo7-lO7" is just an intensifier here .

Falling
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As you imply Mark, the use of "phang1-ki*3" in this way might be from English influence, as both concepts are said as "lost" in English. This reminded me of another thing which my parents used to mention. The use of "pua(h)7-to2" for an object falling, in addition to for a human falling (tripping over, falling down). My parents used to point out that people said this in Penang, but the correct usage was "ka3-lauh1" for objects. They claimed it was because of influence from English "fall".

Regards,
Sim.

PS. Mark: when you say "mid-70's kids", do you mean kids born after the mid-70's or people who *were* kids in the mid-70's. If the latter, then I really hasten to point out that I am in fact one of them!

[Mark Yong]

PS. Mark: when you say "mid-70's kids", do you mean kids born after the mid-70's or people who *were* kids in the mid-70's. If the latter, then I really hasten to point out that I am in fact one of them!

I was referring to kids born in the mid-70's (i.e. their kid years were the late 70's and early 80's). As it turns out, I precede that cut-off point by 1-2 years, so I, too, am spared!

[Mark Yong]

Falling
-------
As you imply Mark, the use of "phang1-ki*3" in this way might be from English influence, as both concepts are said as "lost" in English. This reminded me of another thing which my parents used to mention. The use of "pua(h)7-to2" for an object falling, in addition to for a human falling (tripping over, falling down). My parents used to point out that people said this in Penang, but the correct usage was "ka3-lauh1" for objects. They claimed it was because of influence from English "fall".

Hi, Sim,

Loyal to my rigorous linguistic training in Penang Hokkien under very able local speakers , I make the clear distinction in Hokkien for "falling", too. Here, very broadly, is how I understand the differences: The "to2" 倒 in "pua7-to2" 跋倒 specifically refers to a normally upright object falling/toppling over to its side. By contrast, "ka3-lau1" (don't know the Hanzi for it) refers to an object falling "off its perch" under the influence of gravity.

The Penang Hokkien friend I have been citing several times in this forum also does not make the distinction between the two - often (and, if I may say so, incorrectly) using "pua7-to2" for all kinds of "falling", including "toppling".

Regards,
Mark

[Mark Yong]

I didn't know any other phrase or word for getting lost in the jungle. If I had to say this in Hokkien, I would say "cue3-bo7-lO7" (find no road).

The precise meaning of "cue3-bo7-lO7" is still slightly different from being lost, as far as I can see, but it's my closest approximation. It works for the city, but whether one could actually use it for the jungle is disputable. [On the other hand, the "lO7" in the jungle could be just the little tracks through the jungle...]

If I am not mistaken, "cue3-bo7-lO7" is a slightly less severe instance of 'losing one's way'. I normally use it when I know where I am (location-wise), but am unable to find a particular road/path leading to a particular place. For instance, I may know exactly where I am in Georgetown, but do not know where, say, Beach St. is.

Hong's "sit3-lO7" 失路 sounds correct (I have heard it before, though less often than its Cantonese equivalent).