Medan Hokkien

[SimL]

Talk about "off-topic"! This has drifted from "Medan Hokkien" to "The EATS 2010 Conference" .

Niuc: I'd still like to know if your variety of Hokkien has some sort of "si-ka-lau" / "ji-ka-lau" for "if", when you have some time ...

[niuc]

Hi Sim

Thanks a lot for sharing about your experience in the conference!

Niuc: I'd still like to know if your variety of Hokkien has some sort of "si-ka-lau" / "ji-ka-lau" for "if", when you have some time ...

My Hokkien variant doesn't use "si/ji-ka-lau". It uses 若 'na7' or 若是 'na7-si7'.

Perhaps the most embarassing thing for me each year is that I don't speak Mandarin. Of course, every white person (to say nothing of the East Asians) present at such a conference can speak Mandarin fluently. Still, a lot of these academics are quite kind (especially the ones who have known me for some years now), and they always greet me with a smile when they see me.

Although sometimes I also say to my relatives/friends who do not speak Chinese (usually Mandarin) something like "even that ang-moh speaks Chinese so well" to tease them and more importantly to encourage them to learn Chinese (at least Mandarin), actually I don't think that being born ethnically a Chinese means we automatically must master Chinese better than non-Chinese. At the end I think it all boils down to exposure and opportunity in learning a language. Surely we should applaud non-Chinese who can speak Chinese fluently, even with a native accent! Yet don't be disheartened, I believe given enough time and opportunity, you will be fluent too! Jiayou!

PS: I would be happy to hear what other Forum members know about "khioh-kut" and/or "second burial".

In Bagansiapiapi we call it "khioh-kut-thau" and it is like the practice the presenter told you, i.e. after several years (around 3 years, to ensure only the bones remain) the grave is exhumed and the bones washed (with wine ?) and dried in the sun, then put into an urn ('ang3') and stored in a temple beside the graveyard that was built for that purpose. The urn is also called 'hong7-kim1' [奉]金. I think this way of burial is eco-friendly as the grave can be re-used.

However, rich families usually prefer to build permanent big tombs (做風水 co3-hong1-sui2) and therefore the bones inside such tombs didn't go through "khioh-kut-thau". Alternatively some can go through "khioh-kut-thau" and then co3-hong1-sui2 to house the bones. Hokkien Christians in Bagansiapiapi (Methodists & Roman Catholics) usually build simple permanent tombs, so no need "khioh-kut-thau". A lot (most?) of Bagan-lang are now living in Jakarta and do not practise "khioh-kut-thau" there, usually either permanent burial or cremation (after which the ash is kept in an urn and housed in a temple or thrown into the sea).

If I remember correctly, I ever read that Hakka also practise "second burial". Batak people in Northern Sumatra also, with elaborate ceremony. Orthodox Christianity doesn't allow cremation as it regards cremation as being disrecpectful of human body, so in countries with limited burial land such as Singapore, "khioh-kut-thau" eventually will be done and the bones will be placed in a church/chapel. In fact the Church usually does "khioh-kut-thau" for her Saints and the bones or often fragrant incorruptible bodies (relics) are placed in church buildings (also called "temples") for veneration. Roman Catholicism does the same for RC Saints but it allows cremation.

[SimL]

Hi niuc,

Thanks for your feedback, both linguistic and with respect to the burial customs (including the Christian approach).

Although sometimes I also say to my relatives/friends who do not speak Chinese (usually Mandarin) something like "even that ang-moh speaks Chinese so well" to tease them and more importantly to encourage them to learn Chinese (at least Mandarin), actually I don't think that being born ethnically a Chinese means we automatically must master Chinese better than non-Chinese. At the end I think it all boils down to exposure and opportunity in learning a language. Surely we should applaud non-Chinese who can speak Chinese fluently, even with a native accent! Yet don't be disheartened, I believe given enough time and opportunity, you will be fluent too! Jiayou!

Indeed, when we migrated to Australia when I was a child, some of my (maternal) Chinese-speaking relatives warned me that in Australia "no-one would respect me, because they wouldn't respect a Chinese who couldn't speak Chinese". I never argued back (I was much too much a "good Chinese boy" in those days!), but I did think to myself "Well, Hokkien is Chinese too, and I can speak THAT!". Again, this supports your view, niuc, that Hokkiens generally favour and look up to Mandarin, compared to their own language. Of course, when I got to Australia, I found that nobody cared a rat's arse whether I could speak Hokkien or Mandarin. They were just happy that I spoke English and integrated into Australian society.

Thanks also for the words of encouragement about my learning Mandarin. It's tough, but I did indeed notice that I understood more Mandarin at this conference than at all other previous conferences (EATS conferences being the major place in my life where I hear Mandarin being spoken !)

[Ah-bin]

Indeed, when we migrated to Australia when I was a child, some of my (maternal) Chinese-speaking relatives warned me that in Australia "no-one would respect me, because they wouldn't respect a Chinese who couldn't speak Chinese". I never argued back (I was much too much a "good Chinese boy" in those days!), but I did think to myself "Well, Hokkien is Chinese too, and I can speak THAT!"

That's just what i was going to write. I don't know where this shame campaign comes from about not being able to speak Mandarin, it's like me being so ashamed because I can't speak Anglo-Saxon - how can I understand my heritage if I can't speak that?

What happened in Singapore is what you get when someone who believes that weird stuff about respect gets unfettered power to decide what everyone else's linguistic behaviour should be.

Of course, when I got to Australia, I found that nobody cared a rat's arse whether I could speak Hokkien or Mandarin. They were just happy that I spoke English and integrated into Australian society.

I bet they were extra happy when you learnt nice Aussie expressions like "not to give a rat's arse" too!

And they were extra

[SimL]

Of course, when I got to Australia, I found that nobody cared a rat's arse whether I could speak Hokkien or Mandarin. ...

I bet they were extra happy when you learnt nice Aussie expressions like "not to give a rat's arse" too!
...

OFF TOPIC ALERT!!! OFF TOPIC ALERT!!!

Damn! 20 years away from Australia has affected my Australian idiom: indeed, it's "give a rat's arse", not "care a rat's arse". [Embarrassed !]

[Ah-bin]

Amazing, I read it as "give" without even noticing!

[niuc]

It's tough, but I did indeed notice that I understood more Mandarin at this conference than at all other previous conferences (EATS conferences being the major place in my life where I hear Mandarin being spoken !)

A good indicator of progress! I see, how about Chinatowns (if any) in Netherlands? If you have access to Mandarin tv channels and have time to watch them, usually they may of certain help.

That's just what i was going to write. I don't know where this shame campaign comes from about not being able to speak Mandarin, it's like me being so ashamed because I can't speak Anglo-Saxon - how can I understand my heritage if I can't speak that?

LOL! Ironically it is the other way around, by mandarinization many Hokkiens don't understand their own heritage anymore.

What happened in Singapore is what you get when someone who believes that weird stuff about respect gets unfettered power to decide what everyone else's linguistic behaviour should be.

Either in PRC or Singapore (or Taiwan last time), the campaign is surely not about culture but politics. Those in power are often too smart to believe in what they tell us relentlessly ("Mandarin is our mother tongue"), but they just want to keep everything under their control.