Hokkien words in Thai

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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xng
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Hokkien words in Thai

Post by xng » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:13 am

I am surprised to find so many Minnan words in Thai language

Toh - Table
Kau Ee - Chair
Kue Tiau - Noodle
Sui - Beautiful
Liau - Already
An ni - this


I am not sure whether hokkien borrowed from Thai or Thai borrow from hokkien for Sui as there doesn't seem to be a benzi for Sui (except for those fake ones) ?
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by hohomi » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:52 pm

Toh - Table 桌
Kau Ee - Chair 交椅
xng wrote:Kue Tiau - Noodle What does this come from?
Sui - Beautiful 媠
Liau - Already 了
An ni - this 按尼
Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:30 pm

Note that the Chinese loanwords in Thai are actually Teochiu borrowings, not Hokkien (福建話)borrowings, (although they are still 閩南話). Those you've chosen here are the same in Teochiu and Hokkien, but there are others that are recognisably Teochiu.

Chinese researchers have already done a lot of work on this subject, and none of them say they are Hokkien words.
泰语中潮州话借词及其词义嬗变说略 李泰盛
潮汕方言和泰语的双向借词及其演变发展 林伦伦

If anyone is interested in these articles then just ask me.

The gremmatical words are not good examples of loanwords. They may look the same but

I think the last one is purely co-incidental, and the meaning is different for the two components of the word anyway. The ni means "this" and the an "個" - the order is reversed. If it resembles anything in Chinese, it is Cantonese "ni" for "this", not Hokkien "an-ne". The word also exists in the Tai languages of Kwangsi (Guangxi), where there is only one tiny colony of 閩南話 speakers (note, NOT Hokkien, but a variety of Minnan spoken in 平樂 County) who moved there relatively recently.

Leeau is a particle common to Thai and to Lao, it's not borrowed from Teochiu, but is probably a Middle Chinese borrowing into Tai from the time when the people who spoke languages ancestral to Thai and Lao lived in the Kwangsi-Kwangtung area. I need to check Li Fang-kuei's "Proto-Tai Lexicon" to make sure though.
xng
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by xng » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:20 am

hohomi wrote: An ni - this 按尼
I always wonder whether this is sinitic in origin or borrowed from other languages because it doesn't have any benzi.

It could be Minnan borrowed from Thai. This is obviously Thai in origin, because An nan means 'that'.

An ni - this

An nan - that
xng
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by xng » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:22 am

hohomi wrote: Kue Tiau - Noodle What does this come from?
粿條 - Thai use it to mean noodle. :lol:
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by xng » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:16 pm

aokh1979 wrote:嫷 or 媠 does not sound sui to me, although it has the same radical as 隨.

Would sui actually be something else like 穟 or 穗 or 瑞......

The correct pronounciation of 媠 is T'o and not Sui, if I am not mistaken. It is a borrowed word.
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:10 pm

粿條 is a great example of Hokkien/Minnan vocab that has been borrowed into many languages. In Cantonese. They don't have 粿, and write it 鬼 instead as a borrowed character for the sound.

Those long sticks of fried dough I think they called iû-tiâu 油條 in Amoy (used to have one every morning and order it in Hokkien, but it was four years ago since I was in Amoy), but in Canton they are 油炸鬼 yau-tsa-kwai - nothing to do with frying ghosts.

In Nanning they speak a slightly different Cantonese that split off from the Cantonese of Canton about 300 years ago. When I asked for yau-tsa-kwai there, they understood it, but said "we say yau-tiu". Not sure whether that means the word was borrowed from Minnan recently into Canton Cantonese, or whether Nanning Cantonese had been influenced more heavily by Mandarin.

粿 also ended up in Vietnamese too as their normal word for sticks of fried dough, I think they spell it Quẩy, but I forget.

Looks like someone else has another explanation.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/food/2005-01/ ... 529072.htm

They think it is from the name of 秦檜 Ch'in K'uai, a famous Sung Dynasty "traitor" or 燴 huai4 meaning "to cook together in a pot") and have a nice little story to back it up - no source reference though. I think my explanation is better - it's just the Hokkien word for cake, and it fits better with the tone (shangsheng or the third tone in Mandarin) and meaning than any of the other two characters. The meaning for 燴 is at least close, but it is a verb, not a noun.
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by hohomi » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:03 am

It should be 油炸(米果) [iu5-tsia7-ke2] in Hokkien.
I think 油条 is a sign of recent Mandarin influence.
My grandma doesn't say 油条.
Tell me why you can speak both Hokkien and Cantonese?
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:17 am

hohomi wrote:It should be 油炸(米果) [iu5-tsia7-ke2] in Hokkien.
I think 油条 is a sign of recent Mandarin influence.
Yup, although some people in Bagansiapiapi may understand 油條, all call it 油炸粿.
Ah-bin wrote:They think it is from the name of 秦檜 Ch'in K'uai, a famous Sung Dynasty "traitor" or 燴 huai4 meaning "to cook together in a pot") and have a nice little story to back it up - no source reference though...
My father told me this story, pointing to 油炸粿's shape that resembled a bone.

Regarding Thai words that are similar to Chinese, I also think that most come from Teochew. A native Thai friend confirmed that "toh" & "kau ee" came from Teochew, as Thai has other words for them. From what I heard from that friend and from Thai people in Bangkok during my business trips, "beautiful" sounds not exactly like "sui" but more to "suai". "Suai" can mean unlucky (sue1 in Hokkien), with different tone. Btw "beautiful" in Teochew (at least my Tanjung Pinang friends' variant) is not "sui" but something like "sua" (suah/suak?).

Some of Thai numerals are very similar to Minnan (3 sam, 10 sip -> literary Minnan; 4 si, 7 chet, 9 kau -> colloquial Minnan; 8 paet -> lit & col?). From what I know, Thai doesn't have another numeral set to complement this (e.g. Japanese has yon & shi for 4). If Thai numeral is native Thai, it seems to show that Thai is indeed related to Chinese languages in some way, not merely loanwords. And for those who have heard Thai traditional music, I believe we can sense its similarity with Chinese traditional music. Especially if compared to other traditional musics (and languages) in South East Asia excluding Vietnam & Laos, Thai indeed is much closer to Chinese.
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:32 am

I didn't think they had the 粿 character in Cantonese, that's why I wrote it with the "ghost". I'd ever make it a ghost when writing Hokkien.

I think you are right about the Mandarin influence, but to tell the truth I couldn't really remember. Maybe I said iû-tiâu because my Hokkien stank and they understood me, but maybe I learnt the proper way and I've just forgotten. Won't make the same mistake again though.

I lived in a (mainly) Cantonese-speaking city (Nanning) for a year and for most of the year I refused to speak Mandarin to anyone I met outside. Actually in Guangxi many people in the cities where they don't speak Mandarin can hold a decent conversation in Cantonese - I've tested it out in Liuzhou with great success.

Niuc:
If Thai numeral is native Thai, it seems to show that Thai is indeed related to Chinese languages in some way, not merely loanwords.
They are "native" only because they've been there so long that no other words exist. But some other related Kam-Tai languages have different "native" numerals like Lhoi which counts "u, hlau, tshu, tsho, pa". The "five" in Thai/Lao looks like it is a native leftover when compared with pa in Hloi.

I am not 100% sure, but it seems that suggesting that Thai is not a Sino-Tibetan language is still taboo in PRC publications. The official position seem to be that Tai languages belong to the Sino-Tibetan family,I've met PRC academics who scoff at the idea as ignorant and old-fashioned, but then again I haven't seen a thorough argument against it in a published work. Outside the PRC Kam-Tai has been considered an independent family for about fifty years.
xng
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by xng » Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:18 pm

niuc wrote:
From what I heard from that friend and from Thai people in Bangkok during my business trips, "beautiful" sounds not exactly like "sui" but more to "suai". "Suai" can mean unlucky (sue1 in Hokkien), with different tone. Btw "beautiful" in Teochew (at least my Tanjung Pinang friends' variant) is not "sui" but something like "sua" (suah/suak?).
1. You can't expect a borrowed word to sound exactly the same as the original. As long as the sound is close and the meaning is correct, there is a possibility it is a borrowed word. But whether Thai borrowed from Minnan or Minnan borrowed from Thai is a question mark.

Eg. cantonese pronounce Bus as Pa Si, so the sound is also off a little. It depends on the limitation of the borrowed tongue.

2. Onto another point, if you claim that those words are borrowed from Teochiu instead of hokkien, then why is it that it is pronounced as Kue (zhangzhou, xiamen) instead of Ke (Quanzhou) ? Can somebody tell me what's the exact pronounciation for Teociu ?


3. As for the numerals, it is obvious that they are sinitic in origin. But I would say it is closer to cantonese than minnan.

Eg.

6 (huk) - close to standard cantonese - Luk
10 (sip) - close to Taishan cantonese - Sip and standard cantonese - Sap.
xng
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by xng » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:53 pm

It's not just minnan that thai borrow words from. There are some cantonese words too...

Kai - Chicken
T'aan - Charcoal
Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:40 pm

2. Onto another point, if you claim that those words are borrowed from Teochiu instead of hokkien, then why is it that it is pronounced as Kue (zhangzhou, xiamen) instead of Ke (Quanzhou) ? Can somebody tell me what's the exact pronounciation for Teociu ?
I have no idea, but Chiang-chiu was originally the big major port for trade with the South before Choan-chiu was, so maybe that is the reason.
It should be kui in Teochiu.....but if you want to make a point about "exact pronunciation " and try to pin down an exact location, then I have to quote you:
You can't expect a borrowed word to sound exactly the same as the original. As long as the sound is close and the meaning is correct,
3. As for the numerals, it is obvious that they are sinitic in origin. But I would say it is closer to cantonese than minnan.
They do look close, but they were borrowed at least 1500 years ago, at a time before anything like what we call Hokkien/Cantonese etc. even existed.
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:55 am

xng wrote:1. You can't expect a borrowed word to sound exactly the same as the original.
I never said loanwords must sound exactly the same. Please don't read your ideas into other people's comment!
2. Onto another point, if you claim that those words are borrowed from Teochiu instead of hokkien, then why is it that it is pronounced as Kue (zhangzhou, xiamen) instead of Ke (Quanzhou) ? Can somebody tell me what's the exact pronounciation for Teociu ?
In Teochew, 粿 is 'kue' e.g. 粿條 kuetiau, 粿汁 kuecap.
10 (sip) - close to Taishan cantonese - Sip and standard cantonese - Sap.
十 (拾) is 'sip8' in Minnan literary pronunciation, also 'sip' in Hakka, not only Taishan. Anyway Taishan has some pronunciations that sounds somewhere between Minnan and Cantonese (and may be Hakka), e.g. 驚 'kiang' instead of Cantonese 'keng'. 六 (陸) is liok8 in Minnan literary pronunciation, just in case you don't know yet.
Last edited by niuc on Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:15 am

Ah-bin wrote:They are "native" only because they've been there so long that no other words exist. But some other related Kam-Tai languages have different "native" numerals like Lhoi which counts "u, hlau, tshu, tsho, pa". The "five" in Thai/Lao looks like it is a native leftover when compared with pa in Hloi.
Thanks for the info, I think that probably is the case.
I am not 100% sure, but it seems that suggesting that Thai is not a Sino-Tibetan language is still taboo in PRC publications. The official position seem to be that Tai languages belong to the Sino-Tibetan family,I've met PRC academics who scoff at the idea as ignorant and old-fashioned, but then again I haven't seen a thorough argument against it in a published work. Outside the PRC Kam-Tai has been considered an independent family for about fifty years.
Personally I am quite ignorant about the criteria for those classifications. Actually I didn't mean to say that Thai was Sino-Tibetan, just intriqued by many similarities. Compared to Austronesians such as Malay, Thai indeed seems much closer to Chinese. Having say that, I know Thai is also too different to be Sinitic. I don't know much about Tibetan, so I can't comment further. Btw, elephant in Thai is 'chang', which I think is somehow related to Chinese 象 "siang, siong, chio~, chiu~, ...", also ink in Thai is "mək" -> 墨 "mo, mok, bek, bik, bak, ...". Don't you think that languages from different families can be related somehow? Is it only through loanwords, or can be something more fundamental?
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