Hokkien names?

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
elmer
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Hokkien names?

Postby elmer » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:18 pm

Hello,

I am finalizing my book on the history of (my) family Li(e). I am preparing a genealogical table. It is easy to write the names in pinyin, but my ancestors spoke Hokkien, so I would love to write their names in Hokkien. Can anybody help me with this list, or refer me to a online dictionary? The characters with the accents, is that just for pinyin, or does something like this also exists for Hokkien translation?

regards, thanks!
Elmer



谕 - Yù

君安 - Jūn'ān
君怀 – Jūnhuái
君博 - Jūnbó
君通 – Jūntōng
君迭 – Jūndié

汝谆 – Rǔzhūn
汝谨 – Rǔjǐn
汝诲 – Rǔhuì
汝谟 – Rǔmó
汝谦 – Rǔqiān
汝温 – Rǔwēn
汝良 – Rǔliáng
汝恭 – Rǔgōng
汝俭 – Rǔjiǎn
汝让 - Rǔràng
汝珪 – Rǔguī
汝璋 – Rǔzhāng
致敏 – Zhìmǐn
致政 – Zhìzhèng
致敦 – Zhìdūn
致曲 – Zhìqū
致鈂 – Zhìchén
致仰- Zhìyǎng
致俶 – Zhìchù
致猷 – Zhìyóu
致敬 – Zhìjìng

仲喧 – Zhòngxuān
仲昌 – Zhòngchāng
仲昭 – Zhòngzhāo
仲曜 – Zhòngyào
仲仁 – Zhòngrén
仲礼 – Zhònglǐ
仲祥 – Zhòngxiáng
仲义 – Zhòngyì
仲怡 – Zhòngyí
仲愉 – Zhòngyú
仲恂 – Zhòngxún
仲慰 – Zhòngwèi
仲恺 – Zhòngkǎi
仲文 – Zhòngwén
仲进 – Zhòngjìn
仲阳 - Zhòngyáng
仲雍 - Zhòngyōng
仲隆 - Zhònglóng
仲徽 – Zhònghuī
仲禧 – Zhòngxǐ
仲堹 – Zhòngzhòng
仲篪 - Zhòngchí

嵩蔢 – Sōngpó
嵩得 – Sōngde

新公 – Xīngōng

景贤 – Jǐngxián
景耀 - Jǐngyào
景修 – Jǐngxiū

子寿 - Zǐshòu
子山 - Zǐshān
子贵 – Zǐguì
子用 - Ziyòng
子玉 - Ziyù

宣义 - Xuānyì
希靖 – Xījìng
希泰 – Xītài

璲 – Suì
填 – Tián

子祥 – Zǐxiáng
子玄 – Zǐxuán

汝顺 – Rǔshùn
汝长 – Rǔzhǎng

崇德 - Chóngdé
崇福 – Chóngfú
崇礼 – Chónglǐ

光禄 – Guānglù
光爵 – Guāngjué
光成 – Guāngchéng
光荣 – Guāngróng

普旺 – Pǔwàng
普兴 – Pǔxìng
普显 – Pǔxiǎn
普渊 – Pǔyuān
普盛 – Pǔshèng
普掦 – Pǔtì
普睿 – Pǔruì
普安 - Pǔ'ān
普恭 – Pǔgōng

克仁 – Kèrén

永福 – Yǒngfú
永佑 – Yǒngyòu

逸轩 – Yìxuān
有本 – Yǒuběn

amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby amhoanna » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:54 am

Were your people from Coanciu, Hokkien? (Assuming U want to use their form of Hokkien.)

elmer
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby elmer » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:34 pm

Oh yes, stupid of me I did not mention. My family lived near Jiaomeizhen, right in between Zhangzhou city and Xiamen. regards, Elmer

amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby amhoanna » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:34 pm

Hi, Elmer --

It seems 角美(Kakbí ?)Hokkien is "mainstream Ciangciu", with a twist: it has -u endings in the -ir/-u/-i matrix where other Ciangciu dialects generally go -i. This is most likely where Penang Hokkien got the -u in "lu", YOU. We can help U with this.

Here is a dictionary I recommend U start with. Enter each character individually in the 漢字 box (or field).
http://taigi.fhl.net/dict/

If you see ANY alternate spellings with "漳" in parentheses, go with that one. If not, then use the default (Amoy). For your list, stick with the literary -- i.e. the one that most resembles Cantonese and Mandarin.

The spelling is Church Romanization, not a bad choice in any case. The diacritics mark tone, just as in your Mandarin spellings. If U need help, check back here. I'm tied up for a few days.

elmer
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby elmer » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:06 am

thanks! I am going to work with this right away!

regards,
Elmer

amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby amhoanna » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:35 am

OK - let's help Elmer.

These are, I believe, correct:
Jūn'ān (君安) - Kun'an
Jūnhuái (君懷) - Kunhoâi
Jūnbó (君博) - Kunphok


These are also correct, I think:

Rǔjǐn (汝謹) - Júkín
Rǔqiān (汝謙) - Júkhiam
Rǔgōng (汝恭) - Júkiong
Rǔjiǎn (汝儉) - Júkhiām
Rǔliáng (汝良) - Júliâng


My guess is that 汝 is Jí in Ciangciu proper, but Jú in Kakbé 角美.

Same with the surname 諭: Jī in Ciangciu proper, Jū in Kakbé. (Elmer - does your family call itself Ju / Dzu?)

良 is liâng in Ciangciu proper; I'm guessing Kakbé is the same way. If Penang has liâng, I would just go with it; if Penang has liông, we will need to contact "higher authorities" to see which it is for Kakbé. :P

Jūntōng (君通) - Kunthàng / Kunthong ?

Kunthong, yes


Rǔzhūn (汝諄) - Jútun

Júchun
(using "orthodox" Church Romanization)


Jūndié (君迭) – Kun…
Rǔhuì (汝誨) – Jú…
Rǔmó (汝謨) – Jú…
Rǔwēn (汝温) – Jú…
Rǔguī (汝珪) – Jú…

Kuntia̍t
Júhòe
Júbô͘ (open "o" with raised dot)
Jú'un
Júkui

Rǔràng (汝讓) – Jú…
Rǔzhāng (汝璋) – Jú…


These will require some local and historical knowledge as to what the reading would've been, in Kakbé, back then.

My best guesses are Jújiāng and Júchiong, but I could be wrong. What do U others say?

elmer
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby elmer » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:04 pm

Many thanks for all your support.

I have in total 303 Chinese names, containing in total 589 characters, made up from 268 individual characters. That is a lot of work

To create some overview, I have made a list of these 268 characters, which are linked to the names. So if I change the pronunciation of a character, it may affect the Hokkien-writing of several names. Then I looked for the pronunciation. I used http://taigi.fhl.net/dict/ as primary source (green) and https://github.com/lukhnos/openvanilla/blob/master/DataTables/poj-holo.cin (yellow) as secondary source. Then I learnt that many characters can have different pronunciations. So I put the characters in orde of certainty.

I have put this list on http://www.mediafire.com/?1mm40l6dh3j9g38. If you want you can have a look at it. Any comments are appreciated, especially for the characters at the bottom of the list, about which I am the least sure.

Many regards, Elmer

amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby amhoanna » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:33 am

The ones in red:

21 𡹘 ? This character is not showing up on my Mac. Can anyone else see it?
21 勳 ? hun (first tone)
21 廸 ? alt. char. for 迪, te̍k
21 扬 ? alt. char. for 揚, iông
21 瑶 ? alt. char. for 瑤, iâu

Elmer, if U want, U can insert another column in your spreadsheet for us to make notes in. In the end, we can bring the question marks that persist to other, more hardcore venues.

elmer
Posts: 90
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby elmer » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:05 am

Thanks,

The new file is on http://www.mediafire.com/?1mm40l6dh3j9g38. One thing though, I don't think this is a shared file like on dropbox, that people can update.

The character 𡹘 is problematic yes. I can only see it with certain fonts. I am 100% of 山, 90% sure of the 夂 and 50% of the 户 (you have to realize I have this genealogy in a rather poor copy and as non-chinese-reader I had to decipher all the characters myself).

regards,
Elmer

Abun
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby Abun » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:46 am

Amhoanna, in case your font problems continue, it's 𢼄 over 山.

I personally don't know that character, but seeing none of the dictionaries I have available here (including Kangxi) don't know it either, I don't feel that bad about it :mrgreen: Therefore, the only thing I can think of is to guess by analogy from other characters which include 𢼄. Among all the characters I could find (啟/啓, 棨, 晵, 䁈, 䏿, 肇, 綮), every single one of them is pronounced khé (qǐ in mandarin if you need that, too), except for one, 肇 tiãu, so I would think that khé is a fairly safe guess. Can't say for sure though, of course.

Abun
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby Abun » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:48 am

Amhoanna, in case your font problems continue, it's 𢼄 over 山.

I personally don't know that character, but seeing none of the dictionaries I have available here (including Kangxi) knows it, I don't feel that bad about it :mrgreen: Therefore, the only thing I can think of is to guess by analogy from other characters which include 𢼄. Among all the characters I could find (啟/啓, 棨, 晵, 䁈, 䏿, 肇, 綮), every single one of them is pronounced khé (qǐ in mandarin if you need that, too), except for one, 肇 tiāu (zhào in mandarin), so I would think that khé is a fairly safe guess. Can't say for sure though, of course.

[Edit:] They seriously need to add the option to delete your own posts, at least if no one has replied yet. I keep accidently hitting "quote" instead of "edit" and end up with the same post twice :roll:

elmer
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Re: Hokkien names?

Postby elmer » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:08 am

That sounds fair. If I look to this family, I see that almost all the names contain the character 山. So it may be that this part was actually more for consistency than it had impact on the pronunciation. Thanks!

amhoanna
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Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien names?

Postby amhoanna » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:14 am

I agree with Abun's analysis.

The Kangxi says:

《篇海類編》音寨。又音啓。

http://www.zdic.net/z/8b/kx/21E58.htm

Basically, the character has two completely different pronunciations in Literary Chinese. The second one, the "also" one, would correspond to khé in Hokkien. Even assuming both exist in Hokkien, taking the entire genealogical and sociolinguistic context into account, I think khé would be what Elmer's family actually used.


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