Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the field

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:34 pm

SimL wrote:I think "tuíⁿlải" is 回來, and I'd guess from the context that "Sãigòng" is 西貢.

Sadly "cèngsiỏng" is one of the "educated words" which I didn't know in Hokkien (well, the positive side is I know it now). Before that, I would have said "nO2-mə2" (if in a rough part of Penang, and "nO2-məl2" in a less rough part of Penang). But I'm glad to know the "proper" Hokkien word :mrgreen:.


I see, 鄧來. We say "wat lai". 西貢 is " se kong".
What's "cèngsiỏng"? 正常??

SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:13 am

siamiwako wrote:What's "cèngsiỏng"? 正常??

Well, I'm only going by the Mandarin meaning, and amhoanna's context, but I interpreted it as meaning "normal".

My rendition into English of "Címmá íkeng tuíⁿlải Sãigòng ·a, toà cia KURIPOT tọ kài cèngsiỏng, bián kiaⁿ pháiⁿsè" is (rendered rather literally by intention):

"Now (I've) already come back (to) Saigon [·a], at here (being) stingy [tọ kài] (is) normal, (so I) don't have to be worried (about) feeling bad (about it)".

So, the two bits I am still unsure of are the "·a" after "Saigon", and the "tọ kài".

Perhaps amhoanna (or someone else) can tell me...


siamiwako wrote:I see, 鄧來. We say "wat lai".

I'm surprised that the character-version of the Douglas gives for "tng2"/"tuiN2". Douglas himself claims that "tng2"/"tuiN2" is the colloquial pronunciation of "R: tsoán, to turn; to transfer".

I've never heard of this "tsoán". I used to think that corresponded to Hokkien "tsoan7" (= "to twist"). But in the character-version of the Douglas, this is given as . However, perhaps there was some doubt about this character, because it's not written in the same very nice calligraphy as all the other characters, but seems to have been added later, with a pen rather than a brush.

niuc
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby niuc » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:55 pm

Sim, the "·a" after "Saigon" is the same as 了 liáu in Penang usage. The "tọ kài" is the same as "tō kaì", tō is parallel to 就, and kaì means very (we usually use 真 cin). So: "Now (I've) already come back (to) Saigon, at here (being) stingy is very/indeed normal, (so I) don't have to be worried (about) feeling bad (about it)". Amhoanna, please correct me if I am wrong.

Siamiwako, your 鄧 in 鄧來 is using its Mandarin sound, right? Your variant really say "wat lai" (which tone) for "going back"? In my variant 'uat' (tone 4) means to go to another place (not the destination) for a shortwhile during a trip. Yes, cèngsiỏng is 正常.

Sim, indeed 轉 cuán/tsoán is the TLJ for "tng2"/"tuiN2" too, not only in Douglas' but also in 台文-華文線頂辭典 and 當代泉州音字彙 (and I believe many more). I think this is logical, from the meaning and also the same tone and probably sound-shift. All those dictionaries also list 撰 as cuān/tsoān.

Amhoanna, interesting to know that Ilokanos are regarded as stingy. I used to have impression that Filipinos were party-lovers and big-spenders.

SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:48 pm

Hi niuc,

Many thanks :mrgreen:.

I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.

siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:00 am

niuc wrote:Siamiwako, your 鄧 in 鄧來 is using its Mandarin sound, right? Your variant really say "wat lai" (which tone) for "going back"? In my variant 'uat' (tone 4) means to go to another place (not the destination) for a shortwhile during a trip. Yes, cèngsiỏng is 正常.

Sim, indeed 轉 cuán/tsoán is the TLJ for "tng2"/"tuiN2" too, not only in Douglas' but also in 台文-華文線頂辭典 and 當代泉州音字彙 (and I believe many more). I think this is logical, from the meaning and also the same tone and probably sound-shift. All those dictionaries also list 撰 as cuān/tsoān.


Yes, mandarin pronunciation.
Tng, I've heard this used in "tng tua" to mean adolescence.

siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:03 am

SimL wrote:I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.


Uat is also used as "uat tao" to mean turn (your) head, but not to mean path only.
Sometimes we say "huan lai" (返來?)to mean come back or "huan k'i" (返去?)

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:54 pm

Cool to see so much discussion here again. Yeah, U guys nailed it (my sentence).

"Kài" and "·a" are Taiwanisms...

Oạtthảu in TW means TO LOOK BACK... Oạt is also the word for TO TURN (LEFT/RIGHT).

Tuíⁿtoạlảng is commonly used, it means TO COME OF AGE, TO BECOME A GROWN-UP. I and most TWnese use the tńg pronunciation too, I just write -uiⁿ b/c it seems cool to me, and it's also the "more original" variant.

Pretty bad, talking behind someone else's back.

Talking about myself lah, technically!!

Yeah, I think Pinoys, except Ilokanos, go by the Latin philosophy of spending money. If U've got it, use it. :P That explains why there's Mang Inasal and other chain restaurants everywhere even though the prices
are actually more in scale with TWnese, not Phils, wages.

And SimL, that good neighborhood / bad neighborhood thing is funny!

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:55 pm

Quick note about "Saigon" before battery death. Why 西貢 in kanji? I think Hokkien or more likely Teochew was the language used for the Sinicization of this VNmese place name...

SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:05 pm

siamiwako wrote:
SimL wrote:I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.

Uat is also used as "uat tao" to mean turn (your) head, but not to mean path only.
Sometimes we say "huan lai" (返來?)to mean come back or "huan k'i" (返去?)

Thanks siamiwako. The weird thing is that I asked my parents about "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" and they claim that they don't know it in either of their variants (Northern Malayan and Southern Malayan). No idea where I got it from!

SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:09 pm

amhoanna wrote:...
Pretty bad, talking behind someone else's back.

Talking about myself lah, technically!!

I think siamiwako meant only that it was bad for those shop people to be talking about *you* being stingy...

amhoanna wrote:And SimL, that good neighborhood / bad neighborhood thing is funny!

Haha! Thanks - you obviously have a good feeling for small differences in tone and accent :mrgreen:.

SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:11 am

amhoanna wrote:"Kài" and "·a" are Taiwanisms...

Great! Keep using them, and we can all learn something :mrgreen:.

amhoanna wrote:Quick note about "Saigon" before battery death. Why 西貢 in kanji? I think Hokkien or more likely Teochew was the language used for the Sinicization of this VNmese place name...

Oh, I just used kanji because I have a vague idea that one should use as much kanji as possible. I think I found the kanji by trying to read the Chinese Wikipedia article on (what is now) Ho Chi Minh City. (The article says "原名「西貢」(越:柴棍(Sài Gòn)),...".). Once I spotted these characters, I pounced on them, and didn't think about the pronunciation of these characters in Hokkien - because my character recognition is to poor (for Mandarin even, much less Hokkien), the idea of doing that didn't even occur to me. However, I checked on the Hokkien pronunciation of these, and perhaps in this case they aren't too bad(?): 西 has a pronunciation "sai1", and 貢 has a pronunciation "kong3".

SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:57 am

SimL wrote:
siamiwako wrote:
SimL wrote:I *think* PgHk has "uat8" meaning "to turn", as in "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" (= "to turn here and there, to travel in a zigzag path"). This one is also interesting in that "uat8-lai5 uat8-khi3" - i.e. with tone sandhi on "uat" - also sounds ok to me, though the first sounds more natural.

Uat is also used as "uat tao" to mean turn (your) head, but not to mean path only.
Sometimes we say "huan lai" (返來?)to mean come back or "huan k'i" (返去?)

Thanks siamiwako. The weird thing is that I asked my parents about "uat8 lai5 uat8 khi3" and they claim that they don't know it in either of their variants (Northern Malayan and Southern Malayan). No idea where I got it from!

I found my phrase in Douglas, so at least I know that I didn't make it up!

Douglas p350: "oat-kè-lâi, oat-kè-kì, to wind back and forwards, as a road. oat-lâi, oat-kì, id."

Well, I guess one never knows. Perhaps I heard someone who speaks another variant use it a number of times, and just picked it up without realising that it isn't current in Penang Hokkien. Mark or Andrew, do either of you know this phrase (in PgHk, or in any of the varieties you know)?

The character given in the "character-enriched" Douglas looks like a on the top with a underneath. It could also be a variant or slightly distored way of writing (this last might be because the character is being used as a "sound loan").

I've been putting a lot of work into investigating the "names of the radicals" in Hokkien. Hope to post the results of this at the end of the week.

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:13 pm

Oh, I just used kanji because I have a vague idea that one should use as much kanji as possible.

I only left that last comment b/c it kind of surprised me that Siamiwako and other people from Zamboanga call Saigon "Sekòng".

The 柴棍 etymology is interesting. I'd be surprised if it's actually true.

Personally, I prefer the Khmer name "Prey Nokor" to the name "Saigon". Strange but true: Google Maps (in some languages) calls the city Prey Nokor. No idea how that happened. Pretty cool, though. It's possible that 9 out of 10 Saigonese have never even heard the name Prey Nokor.

Prey Nokor means JUNGLE TOWN. Now y'all know why I like the name Prey Nokor. :P

haroldmanila
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:47 pm

Hi guys!

I just read siamiwako’s post last Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:04 am

Bantay* - Really (e.g. Ke kh'a bantay kui 價錢真貴)
Sauli - Return (e.g. Ch'ia di jiong zuai sauli t'o-i 請你把這些還給他)
Pala - Pay (e.g. Di wu pala beh? 你付錢了沒有?)
Pag - If (e.g. Pag ts'eh bo mi kia 如果沒找到東西)
Din - Also (e.g. Gua buei bo din 我也沒買到)



As a Filipino-Chinese grew here in Manila Philippines.
I could explain/translate the best that I can with the words above.

Bantay – very ( Philippine- hookien )
Sauli – to return ( purely tagalog, just adopted by chinoys ( Chinese-Filipino) to their
hokkien usage)
pala – to pay ( Philippine- hookien )
pag – if ( another pure tagalog adopted in hokkien usage )
din – also ( another pure tagalog adopted in hokkien usage )


Regarding the usage of hokkien here, I can safely say that probably 90% chinoys age 30 years old and above are hokkien speaking. In Manila or in the province you can meet them especially in major cities including the province. Mainland chinese that came here and want to stay or do business here in the philippines must learn how to speak hokkien.

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:39 pm

Thanks, Harold. The last sentence esp. is real interesting. The Mainland Chinese didn't even learn Hokkien when they went to Taiwan, in general. :mrgreen:


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