To Sandhi or not to Sandhi?

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: To Sandhi or not to Sandhi?

Post by amhoanna » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:37 pm

A valiant effort by aBun. I salute that.

Now, I've been able to find time to come here, but your post is a little too involved for me right now. Rather than ignore your post, though, how about this: if there are structures or phrases U're not sure how to work, tone-wise, U can post them here and we'll label them for U.

Be aware that tone sandhi rules are very different btw Penang and Taiwan. In my estimation, this is probably THE biggest stumbling block for communication btw the two dialects. I also touched on this in the Bisayas thread.
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: To Sandhi or not to Sandhi?

Post by Abun » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:18 am

Hey amhoanna,

yes I admit, it's pretty long and theoretical, I should have given practical examples. I will try to formulate my questions as example sentences:

1. Chit-ê-lâng sin-khu chin lò (這个人身軀真躼).
Would you use running or standing tone on the "khu"?

2. Will need a couple of examples here...
Góa thiaⁿ--bô lí kóng--ê ōe (我聽無你講的話).
Lí kám ū thiaⁿ--tio̍h (你敢有聽著)?
I-ê chá-tǹg bô chia̍h--liáu (伊的早頓無食了).
Pháiⁿ-sè, góa bô khòaⁿ--kìⁿ (歹勢,我無看見).
Would you use running or standing tone on the verb?

3. khòaⁿ--khí-lâi (看起來)
Here the last two syllables are neutral, right? Does that mean they have the same tone quality or is there a difference between them?

4. Chit tiâu hāng-á sioⁿ oe̍h--ah--lah. Sái khì-chhia tō sái bē ji̍p-khì (這條巷仔傷狹矣啦。駛汽車就駛袂入去).
How are the tones on sái bē ji̍p-khì (駛袂入去)?

5. I have difficulties making an example sentence with liáu (了) before a complement because I don't know about the grammatical restrictions on that one, only that in some cases it can be used in a similar fashion kah (甲) in "I kóng-ōe kóng kah hō͘ lâng khùn--khì--o͘h (伊講話講甲予人睏去喔)".

6. How would you pronounce the surname in expressions like "Lîm sió-chiá (林小姐)", "Koeh lāu-su (郭老師)", "Tioⁿ thài-thài (張太太)"?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: To Sandhi or not to Sandhi?

Post by amhoanna » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:28 pm

1. Chit-ê-lâng sin-khu chin lò (這个人身軀真躼).
Would you use running or standing tone on the "khu"?
Standing!

The sentence is technically correct, but "sinkhu" is redundant here.
Góa thiaⁿ--bô lí kóng--ê ōe (我聽無你講的話).
running; standing
There should not be a double dash after the thiann.

I would say Lí kóng saⁿh góa thiâⁿ bô. (Sannh and bô in standing, everything else running. There is a question as to whether the sannh is really a neutral form of sáⁿ, but U might wanna leave that for Advanced Hoklo.)
Lí kám ū thiaⁿ--tio̍h (你敢有聽著)?
standing
I-ê chá-tǹg bô chia̍h--liáu (伊的早頓無食了).
Running; no double dash. In my idiolect, at least, there would be a hǒ͘ between cia̍h and liáu.
Keep in mind that in Malaysia, Singapore and Sumatra, liáu can function as an aspect marker equivalent to Mandarin le0 (which may well be a cognate, in some way). In that case, both cia̍h and liáu would be standing. (Their Hoklo stands a lot; Twese/Amoy Hoklo runs a lot. This is a small part of what gives Twese that smooth, snakey sound when spoken right.)
Pháiⁿ-sè, góa bô khòaⁿ--kìⁿ (歹勢,我無看見).
standing
3. khòaⁿ--khí-lâi (看起來)
Here the last two syllables are neutral, right? Does that mean they have the same tone quality or is there a difference between them?
There are two different kinds of "neutral" in Hoklo.

"Echo neutral" is level, unstressed, and takes on the tone level where the previous syllable left off.

"Fallaway neutral" is low, unstressed, and falls toward the bottom of the tone scale. When two or more fallaway neutral syllables sequence together, there may be a waterfall effect.

Here, both syllables are fallaway neutral. They are basically the same. The previous syllable ended at the bottom of the tone scale; there was no room for a waterfall.
4. Chit tiâu hāng-á sioⁿ oe̍h--ah--lah. Sái khì-chhia tō sái bē ji̍p-khì (這條巷仔傷狹矣啦。駛汽車就駛袂入去).
How are the tones on sái bē ji̍p-khì (駛袂入去)?
running, running, standing, fallaway

The end of the first sentence is interesting too. "Ah" is echo neutral in Mainstream Taiwanese, although it might be fallaway neutral in other dialects (even on Taiwan). "Lah" is fallaway. "Ah" is level, and takes the tone level of the end of "oe̍h" -- this can be high, mid, or poss. even lowish depending on the dialect. "Lah" then falls away from there.

U mentioned building all this into the writing system. That would be nice indeed.
5. I have difficulties making an example sentence with liáu (了) before a complement because I don't know about the grammatical restrictions on that one, only that in some cases it can be used in a similar fashion kah (甲) in "I kóng-ōe kóng kah hō͘ lâng khùn--khì--o͘h (伊講話講甲予人睏去喔)".
Just listen or observe.

As a guideline,

liáu deals with actions that could be regarded as a "performance" (not a piáu'ián, but a piáuhiān)

kàu >> kà >> kah deals with extents, or distances; 地步s, to use a Mandarin word.
6. How would you pronounce the surname in expressions like "Lîm sió-chiá (林小姐)", "Koeh lāu-su (郭老師)", "Tioⁿ thài-thài (張太太)"?
All running.

Surnames stand in front of --siansiⁿ and --ka. These are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head right now.

Great questions.
Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: To Sandhi or not to Sandhi?

Post by Abun » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:34 am

amhoanna wrote:
1. Chit-ê-lâng sin-khu chin lò (這个人身軀真躼).
Would you use running or standing tone on the "khu"?
Standing!
Okay there goes my theory that it's the topic, not the subject which is resposible for standing tone :lol:

It's also interesting that in some of the cases of "complement of result" (tsia̍h-liáu, thiann-bô), running tone is used, while on others (thiann--tio̍h, khuànn--kìnn) it's standing one. I have to think about the reason for that... maybe the former group has been so much lexicalized that it's a single verb instead of verb+complement already? But then again, it's not like they are used that much more often than thiann--tio̍h or khuànn--kìnn...
amhoanna wrote:
5. I have difficulties making an example sentence with liáu (了) before a complement because I don't know about the grammatical restrictions on that one, only that in some cases it can be used in a similar fashion kah (甲) in "I kóng-ōe kóng kah hō͘ lâng khùn--khì--o͘h (伊講話講甲予人睏去喔)".
Just listen or observe.

As a guideline,

liáu deals with actions that could be regarded as a "performance" (not a piáu'ián, but a piáuhiān)
Hm, then I guess I should have used liáu in my example, right?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: To Sandhi or not to Sandhi?

Post by amhoanna » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:06 pm

In your sentence, I would've used "kà", same as U. He spoke on TO A POINT (地步) WHERE the others fell off in a slumber. I guess my guideline is not very clear. :oops: The natives will be a better resource on this anyway.

Semantics will not get U all the way with tone sandhi. Notice that "the̍h tiāu" and "the̍h cáu" are running, standing. But "the̍h--khì " and "the̍h--khílâi" are standing, fallaway, (fallaway).
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